The Mathematical Proof of the existence of God

[DaughterUK]

Okay, at risk of sounding like I'm totally batshit crazy, I'm going to attempt to prove the existence of God. Your job is to poke holes in my logic if you find any.

FACTS WE KNOW FOR SURE:
1. There are many constants in the universe (e.g. speed of light through a vacuum, cosmological constant...etc)
2. All constants have a numerical value (regardless of what unit of measurement is used to measure said constant)
3. Numbers go on for infinity, there is no such thing as the highest possible number or the lowest possible number (going minus numbers since we can consider zero to be in the middle)
4. Either the universe was created or it sprung into being exactly as it is by random chance.
5. Any being capable of creating the universe would have to be all knowing, thus has to be a 4 dimentional being (not stuck in time like we are).

Our question is: WHAT IS THE PROBABILITY OF THE UNIVERSE SPRINGING INTO BEING EXACTLY AS IT IS BY RANDOM CHANCE?

Since numbers go on for infinity, any of the universal constants could have had an infinite number of other possible values. This being the case, the PROBABILITY of any constant having it's actual value is infinity to one.

When we take all of the constants into consideration, the probability of the universe being exactly as it is by random chance is infinity to one to the power of the number of constants in the universe.

In plain English, that means that it is a mathematical impossibility for the universe be the way that it is without external interference. By disproving the theory that God does not exist, we are actually proving that he DOES exist. (taking away a negative in maths is the same as adding a positive... e.g. 5 - -7 = 12)

Have fun.

[Atubiga]

Thanks very much for the post and I am very happy that you concluded this way. Remember that probability is a random process and nothing is constant in that RANDOM process so you cannot combine probability with constants. that doesn't make much sense to me. If nobody was there in the beginning to ensure the "stability" of those constants in the random process, then there wouldn't be any universal constant. Everything would be changing in the random process. I believe that there was an intelligent designer who placed those constants in such a way that those constants will remain constants forever. Gravity "g" is an example. Gravity is the same everywhere on the surface of the earth but Gravity on earth is six times more than gravity on the moon. yet the gravity on the moon remains 1/6 of the gravity on earth forever. This was due to the work of an intelligent designer.

[DaughterUK]

Actually, there is a gravitational constant. As you might know, objects with larger mass have larger gravitational fields. Hence why the Earth has a greater gravitational field than the moon, and why the sun (which is greater in mass than the Earth) has a greater gravitational field than the Earth. I do not know the exact value of the constant, but I do know that there is a gravitational constant which means that the strength of the gravitational field is relative to the mass generating said field.

I'm not combining randomness with constants as such. My formula points out that the constants cannot be as they are left to random chance because it is a mathematical impossibility. It has to do with the nature of infinity. If you brought a lottery ticket with the chance of infinity to one of winning, you would have a ZERO chance of winning. This is what I was trying to say... there is ZERO chance that we are here by random chance.

[Adesuyi]

The proof for the existence of God is no doubt a debate in the various fields. Anyway, don't you think somebody else can be responsible for that mathematical whatever. Apart from that, there is is a gap (gulf)to be filled. Consider the existence of God and the problem of evil. What do you think?

Well, there is no doubt you exist and if you do exist then there must exist what it takes for you to exist. You exist in space and time and hence what it takes for you to exist must exist outside of space and time. Anything outside of space and time is eternal. There must exist an eternal being for you to exist. God is eternal.

To the problem of evil, I think that evil does not exist or let me put it this way; evil is not a being by itself. Evil is just the absence of goodness or the absence of God.

[DaughterUK]

Evil exists because we forgot who we are, God's children. In forgetting God and the ways of God, we forgot that we were made in his image. We got tied up in the material realm where our perceptions are different. We are not organisms, we have an organism as a physical body. Because we forgot this basic truth, we got tied up in petty problems and grievences which lead to us committing sins. When lots of people are committing lots of sins every day, we create hell on Earth. That's because we are living without God.

We should not be attributing the evil in the world to God not caring, we should place the blame squarely where it belongs, with ourselves. What kind of a heavenly father would he be if he shielded us from the consequences of our own actions? Nice as it might sound if he did, the reality would be not good.

A child who is coddled by his parents will never know what the real world is like, he will never stand on his own two feet, grow up and become a man. Likewise, if we are shielded from the consequences of our own actions, as a species we will not progress. God knows this, and thus he will not interfere with our development. God lets us get on with it out of love, and in many cases it seems like tough love, but it is necessary for our progression.

God could have, if he had wanted to, made us like obedient robots, but he chose not to. He loves us so much that he endowed us with FREE WILL. He gives us the choice to accept him or reject him. He intended that mankind love him and be in friendship with him. Friendship is based on love, and without free will, that friendship is rendered meaningless. You cannot love those who you have no choice but to obey. Love is a voluntary thing, it cannot be enforced, but it can be earned.

God is perfection, he earns the love of everyone who is willing to open their eyes and recognise him. Only the unconcious of the human race do not recognise or love God, because once you know him you really cannot help loving him. How can anyone not love perfection?

DaughterUK

Well, there is no doubt you exist and if you do exist then there must exist what it takes for you to exist. You exist in space and time and hence what it takes for you to exist must exist outside of space and time. Anything outside of space and time is eternal. There must exist an eternal being for you to exist. God is eternal.

Does not follow. If I exist in space and time, then what came before me could only be from in space and time. How could I be made from something other than the natural elements? Is anything but natural elements required to make people?
Since we are composed entirely of natural elements, where does the supernatural come in?

You are making a common error among religious adherents. You are starting from the conclusions you have already been taught, and then forming your world view from those, and that's not a good way to learn anything.

To the problem of evil, I think that evil does not exist or let me put it this way; evil is not a being by itself. Evil is just the absence of goodness or the absence of God.

This is not what he means by "problem of evil"; that is a very specific logical argument by which the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god is shown as contradictory. The simplest version (from wikipedia) is as follows:

1. If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.

A being which is omniscient would know when there is evil in the world, and an omnipotent being would know when evil was coming, so how can evil exist if God is perfectly knowing and perfectly good?

This is where most religious people say something about how God is in the details or free will but this is just more rationalization. The reality they propose is of a God who is constantly fiddling with the world in the guise of chance, a universe where it is impossible to determine that God exists because for some reason he is eternally hiding himself from humankind. That seems like wishful thinking to me.

Another aspect of the problem of evil is the contradiction of omniscience and omnipotence. If God knows what He is going to do in the future, does he have the ability to change his action?

If he can change his action then god can't be omniscient, because he wasn't able to see the change in his action in the future.

If he cannot change his action then we can hardly say god is omnipotent because he is powerless to his own omniscience.

Thus: an all-powerful, all-knowing god is a logical impossibility.

[Johnny5]

Originally Posted by DaughterUK

Okay, at risk of sounding like I'm totally batshit crazy, I'm going to attempt to prove the existence of God. Your job is to poke holes in my logic if you find any.......
....

This is assuming God knows constants and the numerical value necessary to make a universe bloom.

[DaughterUK]

Originally Posted by Johnny5

This is assuming God knows constants and the numerical value necessary to make a universe bloom.

I believe that he MUST know the constants... if he wasn't all knowing he would not be God, and the universe could not exist as it exists anyway because of the mathematical impossibility I outlined in my initial post. With God existing outside of the space-time continuum, it would be impossible for him not to be omniscient.

DaughterUK

[jales]

you are complicating something very simple.

the concept that GOD does NOT exist does NOT equal randomness.

If as you say God is 4 dimensional ..what is the 4th dimension, the ability not to be stuck in time? (and WHY MUST HE BE 4 DIMENSIONAL???)

Anyway the concept that God does not exist can simply mean that we DO NOT YET KNOW OR UNDERSTAND THE SOURCE OF OUR ORIGIN. simple.

There are many things in life we do not know. MANY.

anyway if God does exist according to your logic HE MUST HAVE BEEN RANDOMLY BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE RIGHT? (because even the 4 dimensional things which you use as your examples like light etc. you claim that GOD CREATED THEM.. so therefore even 4 dimensional things need to be created at some point right?..or else what is the point of the concept of GOD???)

So continuing.. the logic you use is that SINCE WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE, IT MUST HAVE A) BEEN GOD or B) BEEN RANDOM.

So THEREFORE IF WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ORIGIN OF GOD (WHICH WE DON'T)
IT MuST HAVE BEEN A) ANOTHER GOD or B) RANDOM.

And therefore the probability of GOD existing becomes 1 in infinity...

Please reply.
I'm in a bad mood yes

SORRY FOR SOUNDING AGRESSIVE I JuST WITNESSED THE WORST THING I EVER SAW AND THE ONLY THING i CAN THING TO BLAME IS THE CONCEPT OF GOD!!!

[jales]

Originally Posted by DaughterUK

4. Either the universe was created or it sprung into being exactly as it is by random chance.
5. Any being capable of creating the universe would have to be all knowing, thus has to be a 4 dimensional being (not stuck in time like we are).

in other words if the two above are really facts.. they contradict each other!

if you can comprehend the concept of something being 4 dimensional or not stuck in time, then number 4 should have at least one more option.

ie it should read
4. Either the universe was created or it sprung into being exactly as it is by random chance or THE UNIVERSE IS 4 DIMENSIONAL AND WAS ALWAYS THERE.

things aren't just facts because you decide they are okay.

[AltMvz]

Think about this Daughter UK. If The beginnings of the universe developed in any other way, there would be know humans to ponder about it. Think about it. This doesn't prove a god!
Some also say there are alternative universes(infinite) that support no life. Only a small few do. We live in one.

[Khelos]

Originally Posted by AltMvz

Think about this Daughter UK. If The beginnings of the universe developed in any other way, there would be know humans to ponder about it. Think about it. This doesn't prove a god!
Some also say there are alternative universes(infinite) that support no life. Only a small few do. We live in one.

Alright so we have guys taking a theory to disprove another theory. I'm not even going to explain why that is dumb.

Alright man so look, at some point all matter poured into the universe through a hole with no dimension (you know this as the "big-bang"), and all matter before hand was pure energy that was simply converted. That right there proves God's existence, seeing as how before nothing existed there must of been something to guide the energy into reacting, if nothing exists, nothing can happen, no matter how much energy is floating around in what is a non-vessel.

[AltMvz]

What daughterUk says about the universe being so exact is right. She's right. You could easily be led to believe that there was a designer. Why did it develop to the exact conditions that would support life?
All i pointed out was that if it developed in any other way then we wouldn't be here to ponder it. That in itself does not prove God.
Many believe like i've said before that there is alternative universes(infinite) and in most maybe 99.99% the universe develops in a way not supportive of life. Were just in the one that did.
And Khelos i don't think anyone's dumb for discussing it. Yeah (wow) i know that before matter there was pure energy. In fact they believe if you could make matter travel very very fast like in a handron collider all matter would eventually all go back to energy. Still does not prove a God Khelos. Maybe for you it does. Just proves there way a black hole, or singularity, where admitally all science breaks down. Still doesn't prove a god.

[Khelos]

A black hole could not exist unless matter was there to form it. Before the big bang nothing would have existed as matter, and therefore nothing could of slowed down. And science always applies, you just need more advanced methods buddy.

who gave you the mind you are using to proof? God gave you the mind you are using to proof. The fact that you have the mind to proof something is enough reason to show God exists.

Originally Posted by goatasaur

Another aspect of the problem of evil is the ...

Doesn't the concept of being able to grasp something considered to be all powerful and all knowing with a human brain that we can only use a tiny fragment of our brain? If we are so smart that we can grasp the entirety of this with our mind, why don't we even have access to maximizing the efficiency of our brain?

[Bafana]

You don't need mathematics to proof that God exists. Just think about your own existence for once and you will come to the idea that God exists. If there wasn't any uncaused cause and unmoved mover then where from we? don't quote science because science is wrong without God. According to science, we evolved out of a pre-existing matter but where from the pre-existing matter if matter cannot be created nor be destroyed? the only solution to the problem is that there must exist an uncaused first cause or God.

Okay first off the math is true, but the conclusion is not Daughter UK. Just because these universal "constants" have an infinity to one chance of having their specific value does not mean that the universe being breated has an infinity to one chance of being created. It simply means that the odds of those "constants" being those specific values are infinitely small. That is the only conclusion you can draw from that. Mathematics doesn't draw conclusions from anything outside of the equation. A new equation must be drawn to answer a new problem.

This doesn't mean that they had a 0% chance of BEING created. Simply that there was a 0% chance of them having the specific values that they do.

This does not conclude nor involve any god in any form or shape.

You can't logically conclude that god exists in any way shape or fashion obtainable at present. We can infer the existance of god, but that doesn't mean we have proven his/her/its existance to anyone other than ourselves. Thats the key to all of this mumbo-jumbo. What can WE OURSELVES conclude about god's existance? Beliefs are only as true as the believer dictates them to be. Don't take it personally that someone doesn't believe what you do. They just require more or different things to infer the same things that you do.

As far as who gave me the mind to create this whole statement... well i would like to take this time to thank my mom and dad for having sex that fateful night back in 1983. That's what caused me to have this mind. I understand infinite regression back to the first cause. What created the un-moved mover? What started the big bang/crunch? These are questions we do not have answers to, nor do we presently have the ability to answer them.

Overall decent little stream with some valid arguments involved. Save the few that simply started with GOD GAVE YOU THE MIND TO THINK THATS THE ONLY CONCLUSION! Seriously people, are you so narcissistic and conceited that you can't fathom the possibility of being WRONG?

I'm done have fun people.

[Doug]

I think I will prove that we should leave proving to our religious leaders who have all the provable proof we need to prove what needs proof in order to be proved. Proof is needed in order for man to prove what is needed to be proved for without proof of proof how can anyone prove that the proof they have is really proof of what they proved. Think I will stop right here before I have to prove that I am sane beyond proof. Oh shut up Doug!

[Anamela]

God cannot be proven. No matter how hard you try you will end up defeating yourself. You don't need to prove everything before accepting. You need faith and reason to understand. faith helps in situations where reason cannot fully explain. You need faith to please God.

[Doug]

The proof of what you say is unproven if you cannot prove that it can be proved. Therefore if the unproved becomes proved by proving the unproved is provable beyond a provable doubt then the doubt is unprovable because it is not provable. If then doubt is unprovable then one cannot be sure it is provable. However, if you cannot be sure it is provable then why even try to disprove your doubt about trying to prove it in the first place. Some how or other I seem to of lost my train of thought but how can I prove that if I don't remember what I said on the subject of proof. I just proof read what I wrote and I cannot prove I understand what I just tried to prove or maybe it was disprove. i think I will just leave it unproved because I doubt if I improved anything. One thing I know I improved with all this typing is my typing, and that i can prove.

mathematical prove? are you kidding me? Can you use mathematics to prove your emotions? Does it make sense to prove mathematically something you cannot see nor touch? Does it make sense to prove mathematically something that neither occupy space nor have weight? you can prove mathematically if you accept that God is matter and if God is matter then we should be able to see and touch him.

What makes you think that the universe did not exist at some point and hence was either created or sprung into existence?

By the way how old are you? Think, what's the probability of you being such age?

Hint: By your logic, it is 0 and hence you don't exist (since there are an infinity of other ages you could be)

This universe may not have existed forever... but this universe is only a part of the Omniverse which have always existed and will always exist... The Omniverse is the Existence itself.... God may be a small part of it.....

why is it so hard to believe in the big bang theory?

[Doug]

Quote: "why is it so hard to believe in the big bang theory?

You got me but who set off the bang and where did the stuff come from that went bang?

"that means that it is a mathematical impossibility for the universe be the way that it is without external interference."

This is a completely false claim. The probability although being immensely small exists, which means that even though there was a bigger possibility of not existing the universe that 1/infinity won. And the claims about there must be an interference of god is false too. Math itself is pure and only abstract, but the way we applied it and used it is purely human-made. For example, we crated the numbers (1,2,3....) but they always existed in theory. What I mean by this is that even if the constant of light was to be different it would mean no difference to us, because although it is in theory c we gave it a number, a "label".

I hope I didn't get side tracked here.

Originally Posted by DaughterUK

Okay, at risk of sounding like I'm totally batshit crazy, I'm going to attempt to prove the existence of God....
.

mathematics and all strings of it (including probability) are all man made and used to help us to describe everything we observe, unfortunately you cannot use it on it's to prove something as you need ALOT of evidence. i personally do not believe in a god in the sense that modern religions perceive him/her/it. i mean come on, heaven and hell??!!?!!? the church throughout history has used the idea of hell to scaremonger people to go to church, and we all know why they exist, COLLECTION PLATE! the church is one of the most rich and powerful organisations in the world and in my eyes, is evil.
to be honest though i do like the way that you have worked that must exist hahaha, i now know how to answer that question if it pops up on my physics paper