Jesus as Lord and Personal Savior?

[Doug]

I read in another thread - "If you are a Muslim and you want salvation then better quit Islam and accept Jesus as your lord and personal savior".

My question is HOW and WHY? Why is he personal and how does he save? While I ponder this I might as well ask, saved from what? All this then begs the question of, if I were a Muslem would I want to or need to be saved? Jesus claimed to be a prophet in his own words and that is what a Muslim believes.

I thought that Jesus said he was a prophet and that God will not have sacrifice like the Jews did. I also read that Jesus came to give us understanding of the TRUE GOD. He also said he did not come to save the righteous but call sinners to repentance.

Accept Jesus? Accept a personal savior? Never heard that Jesus ever said anything about that. Please explain.

[Kofi]

"Personal Savior" that is one of those terms in Christianity I don't understand. English is not my native language so I don't like relying on English too much. But from the little English I know, 'personal' means something private or not public. Christianity teaches me that Jesus Christ is a savior because He came to die for our sins so that we may gain salvation which I believe. Jesus Christ is also Lord because the Bible teaches me so.

I don't have problem at all with 'Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior' but 'Jesus Christ is Lord and personal Savior' is a term I don't really understand. Jesus came and died for us all. Jesus did not die a private death. In fact Jesus died more than a public death. He died in the open air and He died on a cross raised above the ground so that all eyes may see. His death brought salvation and that makes Jesus a Savior but not a personal savior because He died a public death for all mankind and not a private death for each and every individual.

I am not sure but maybe some Christians coined this term to make people feel special about their relationships with Jesus as if Jesus came purposely for us as individual people.

As for Jesus being a prophet, I remember somewhere in the Bible Jesus said, a 'prophet' has no honor in his own home. But the 'prophet' here wasn't referring to Jesus. Jesus just used that as an example of how his own Jewish people rejected him although He brought nothing but good news just like a prophet delivering God's message to His people but His own people refusing to listen to him because they consider him(the prophet) not 'extraordinary' but the usual person they know and therefore do not pay much attention to the good news he preaches.

[Doug]

Quote: "As for Jesus being a prophet, I remember somewhere in the Bible Jesus said, a 'prophet' has no honor in his own home. But the 'prophet' here wasn't referring to Jesus". Luke 13:33 You might read here that Jesus called himself a prophet. Also Luke 24:19 reads "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people. In John 4:19+ The woman called Jesus a prophet. He did not deny it and prophesied to her about the hour that is coming. Well enough of that and everyone will believe what they want. If religion is the source or the words of Jesus is your source everyone has free-will to choose.

English is not my native language so I don't like relying on English too much. But from the little English I know. That is hard to believe. Your command of the english language is remarkable. Your english composition is amazing. Your spelling is impeccable. Your words flow like a stream of cohesiveness resulting in pure understanding of what you mean. I love reading your postings.

Now Kofi I know also what christianity teaches. I also know what Jesus teaches. But, but for life of me I cannot find where Jesus Christ said he is a savior because He came to die for our sins so that we may gain salvation. In my post I quoted a few things He came to do but not that. I know he said he must die because the Jews killed every other prophet that ever came to them. I know he said he must die so he could send the Holy Spirit to us for just a few but never die for our sins so that we may gain salvation. I know he said that if we obey his word we would have life eternal. That is quite different than murdering a man to pay for someone's sins. Besides, if his death paid for sin then there is no point to forgiveness or mercy for sin for there is no sin left to forgive or extend mercy for. I am so confused because what Jesus says is in complete contradiction to what religion says. Somebody is riding the train of contradiction to doom. Does Jesus know what he is talking about or does religion have the word of God?s

Help is needed to unravel my mind between the two. Someone help please.

[Kofi]

Something just crossed my mind right now so lets see if it makes sense.
Lets say my neighbor was tired of this life and so decided to end his life by hanging himself. Lets say I met this my neighbor hanging on a rope in his house almost dead and quickly rushed to his side and caught the rope and saved his life. Imagine this my neighbor later on comes back to his senses and realizes what he was doing was wrong and then comes back to my house and tells me, "thank you for saving my life..you are my savior", am I not a savior at this point?. I don't save people all the time but at this particular point, I have saved a life and he calls me a savior. If I can be a savior then maybe all of us can be saviors too. A prophet can be a savior, a doctor can be a savior, and so on.

If a prophet preaches the good news so as to save our souls from the fires of hell then he is a savior just like cutting the rope and saving my neighbor's life. Anybody that saves us whether physically or spiritually from an impending doom is our savior.

In my case I don't save all the time. I save only once in a while but in the case of Jesus, every word that came out of his mouth brought salvation. Every deed He did was to save lives. The good news He brought has changed several lives for the better and it continues to transform several other lives. Although Jesus is not here physically with us, He continues saving lives because the good news He brought continues transforming lives for the better. So unlike in my case, Jesus is a special savior because He saves all the time.

I read those verses you gave and you are right some do refer to Him as a Prophet but what I am trying to say is that, even if Jesus was just a Prophet, He was still a savior because He brought good news to save mankind. Even if He was just a Prophet, He is still a savior because He continues saving lives through the good news He brought. He continues cutting more ropes with His good news and saving more lives.

The same thing applies to His death. If it is true that Jesus died and rose again then His death also makes Him a savior. We were afraid of death because we thought death was the end for us and that there was no life after death but Jesus' death and resurrection has enabled some us overcome that fear of death because we now know there is life after death. We now know we can conquer death the same way Jesus did. In other words, our fears were hanging us on ropes but Jesus' death and resurrection has enabled us overcome those fears so He is our savior.

What do you think?

[Doug]

So what do I think? I think what you said makes sense in the context you are framing it. I believe there are a few terms used that does not have the same meaning for us. For example: In this country government is trying to slash employee pensions and health care to balance the budget. Some think of these as rights owed them and some view them as benefits given them over and above their just wages. And so we understand certain terms in different lights. So what are they?

For a start how about gospel or good news. The gospel or good news the christian religion preaches as you said: Jesus Christ is a savior because He came to die for our sins. The gospel or good news Peter told Cornelius the Roman when he inquired of God about being saved (Acts 10+) reads as follows: "Truly I perceive God shows no partiality. In every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to him". Now the problem I have with these two gospels is very great. These two gospels teach diametrical opposed methods of being accepted by God or saved. Now the good news you gave me was Jesus Christ saves us by what HE DID (died for our sins). The gospel Peter delivered from the Lord was not what Jesus did to make one acceptable to God but what the person himself must do to be accepted. The church teaches you must accept what someone else has done on your behalf and the Lord says you must repent and start doing what is right yourself. The Jewish idea is that sins and salvation can be accomplished by another (giving god a sacrifice to atone for their sin). The good news of Jesus was that God will not have sacrifice but will have mercy and forgive if one repents of their sin. The christian religion follows the Jewish system and not the gospel or good news of Jesus. Done for you or do it yourself.

If I may I would like to quote you from your first post on this subject:
"Christianity teaches me that Jesus Christ is a savior because He came to die for our sins so that we may gain salvation which I BELIEVE".

So you believe the above because Christianity teaches you that.
And I do not believe that because Jesus teaches me the opposite of Jewish and christian religion.
So because you believe christianity and I believe the Word of 'God made flesh' we cannot come to an understanding of what each other reasons.

All I can say is that because the Jews refused to listen to Jesus in preference to their own religious teaching Jesus then spoke in parables so that they could not understand and be saved. In my humble opinion God has closed the ears of many even today because they love their religion more than the word of God.

And this Kofi is what I think! And now what do you think?
I also am beginning to think that there is no one else out there that is willing to think on this subject.

[Kofi]

What you are saying makes perfect sense because even if you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior who came all the way down to die for your sins but you don't do what is right, you may not gain salvation.

What is confusing me is that, if Jesus' death wasn't that important then why did He come down to die in the first place? Did they crucify Jesus just for being blasphemous without Jesus knowing or Jesus himself decided to come and die for us? Jesus knew earlier on that He was going to die. He knew they were going to crucify Him. Jesus healed the sick, Jesus walked on water, Jesus even raised the dead which means He could have escaped death if His death wasn't that important in terms of our salvation but He did not escape death which means His death was very important.

His words brought salvation. His deeds brought salvation. Jesus preached the good news for just 3 years and then died at 33. He could have escaped death and continued preaching the good news for a longer period and saved more souls rather than just the 3 years if His death wasn't that important in terms of our salvation.

What do you think?

[Doug]

Ouote: "What is confusing me is that, if Jesus' death wasn't that important then why did He come down to die in the first place"?

What in the world makes you think the purpose of Jesus was to die? Not only that but where in the name of heaven did you ever read Jesus came down? Came down from where? He came from the same place you and I came. He came from his fathers sperm and his mothers womb after nine months just as we did. There are at least three times I know of that says the father of Jesus was Joseph. Untold times Jesus himself said he was the son of man.

Die for us? Good old church religious jargon. Jesus never said he came to die for us. No where! Nix! Nada! Never, never and never did Jesus say he came to die for us. To die for someone is to sacrifice your life in place of another so he may live. Again Jesus said very firmly he will not have blood sacrifice. Now what I can't figure out is if Jesus himself said he will not have sacrifice but will have mercy and forgiveness of your sins if you repent then where in the world does anyone figure he came to die for your sins?

Jesus said he came to destroy the works of the devil. It also says that Jesus came to his own people but they did not receive him. Jesus told those of the Jewish religion that their god was the DEVIL. Now their god and the god of their religion, sacrificial atonement, was the DEVIL and that is what Jesus came to destroy. Well Jesus prophesied this in Matthew 24 and in other places. A few years later after his death the prophecy of the destruction of their temple and sacrificial offerings was fulfilled and to this very day never more rebuilt.

The problem Kofi still remains because you have not tackled the term 'good news'. Read my previous post on this subject. Until you address the difference in the message between the church and what scripture says is the good news or the gospel you cannot go any farther. You must choose one or the other. Either the good news of church or of Jesus and his apostles. Once you find truth it will set you free.

[Kofi]

"He came from the same place you and I came. He came from his fathers sperm and his mothers womb after nine months just as we did".

Joseph was Jesus' earthly father but the Bible says Jesus is the son of God in heaven and He came down to die for our sins.

Of course Mary carried Jesus for 9 months in her womb and He came from Mary's womb just like we all came out of our mothers' wombs. The part I don't understand is "He came from his fathers sperm..". According to the Bible, Joseph the husband of Mary was very disturbed when he heard that Mary was pregnant why because he(Joseph) had never slept with Mary before. God had to send an angel to convince Joseph in his dream before Joseph accepted the pregnancy.

If you told me Jesus had Mary's blood and DNA in Him, I would understand because Jesus spent 9 months in Mary's womb. But as for Joseph's DNA, Jesus had none. So although Joseph took the responsibility as the earthly father of Jesus, Jesus wasn't Joseph's biological son. So who is the father of Jesus?

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". This verse makes it very clear that Jesus is the son of God and because God loves the world so much, He(God) "GAVE" His one and only "SON"(Jesus) to the world.

If Jesus came out of Joseph's sperm then I would have agreed to the fact that Jesus was just a man because He had a beginning unlike God the Father who Has no beginning and no end. However, If it is true that Jesus is the Son of God as John says then Jesus is eternal just like the Father and if Jesus is eternal then He came down from somewhere else other than this world because this world is not eternal.

John 10:30 Jesus said "I and my father are one". I don't think the 'father' here refers to Joseph the carpenter. The 'father' in " I and my father are one" stands for "God the father" in heaven. This verse also shows that Jesus is as eternal as the father in heaven.

Concerning Jesus dying for our sins, I found this online:
"The name 'Jesus' literally means translated into English, 'God saves.' Sin is horrendous from God's perspective (remember, it took only one sin for God to tell Adam and Eve to leave paradise). Therefore, the punishment for it is death(Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death). It means separation from God as well as physical death. Nobody can pay such a punishment. That is why, because God loves us, He sent Jesus to pay the punishment for all of us by his death on the cross. Because he was without sin, Jesus was able to do that for us."

In other words, none of us could pay that price because we are sinners but Jesus was able to pay the price for us because Jesus is without sin.

[Doug]

Jesus is the first son of many sons the scriptures say so I guess you and I don't have an earthy father. Good to know and thanks for the info.

I guess the apostles that hung around with Jesus are lairs and don't know where Jesus came from.

I guess Jesus was an idiot and did not know and only thought he was the son of a man.

You say the bible says Jesus came down to die for our sins but I defy you to show me where Jesus said he came down to die for our sins.

Concerning Jesus dying for our sins, I found this online: Guess I will have to get me one of those ONLINE BIBLES.

You still dodge the question on the good-news or the gospel that was preached. The one of the scriptures compared to the one of the church.

There is no reason to discuss this farther if your source is your church and the internet and mine is the words of Jesus and his apostles. This is nothing more than an exercise in futility.

[Kofi]

I have two Bibles one in Twi (a Ghanaian language) and the other in English. I like comparing the verses in both and what I have discovered is that, most of these Bible translations have lost the original meanings of some of the verses. What I do these days is that, anytime I remember a passage in the Bible, I search the passage on google for the book, the chapter, and the verse and then I use those online Bibles to compare translations to see if the meanings are the same.

"You say the bible says Jesus came down to die for our sins but I defy you to show me where Jesus said he came down to die for our sins"

I have some interesting quotations showing that Jesus died for our sins and here are a few of them:

1 Corinthians 15:3 says "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures"

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Galatians 1:4 "who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father"

1 Peter 2:24 "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed."

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 "For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."


"Jesus is the first son of many sons the scriptures say" This is very true. There are many sons of God but just one "begotten" Son(Jesus) who is the first Son. The rest are adopted sons of God.

Ephesians 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"


"These two gospels teach diametrical opposed methods of being accepted by God or saved"

Both gospels are true but I don't think they teach opposed methods of being saved. I think they teach the two requirements to salvation. 1.You must believe that Jesus died for our sins 2.You must accept God into your heart and do what is right.

They are not opposing methods because if you believe Jesus as the Son of God who came to die for our sins then you will believe in the good news He brought and by believing in the good news He brought, you will do what is right because that is what Jesus preached.

I almost forgot John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

[Doug]

You still did not show me where Jesus said he came down to die for our sins"

Did Jesus say anything that you gave me in those verses? NO! All Paul who never seen Jesus when he was alive. Is Paul the Word made flesh? I guess you think so.

As far as the two gospels go, payment of sin vs mercy and forgiveness of sin upon repentance cannot be anything but opposite. You want to make them equal?

Forget it. Justify your church and be happy. Let Paul be your god. Let religion be your teacher and let the internet be your bibles. That whole quote you gave me from the internet was not a comparison of bibles but church doctrine. I will no longer discuss religion for it is fruitless. Sometime in the future if you would like to discuss the words of Jesus I would be happy to do so. As for this other garbage if you like it keep at it but not me.