Homosexuality morally wrong: Goes against Nature

[Kofi]

Nature is full of life and life is good. Life is full of choices and everybody has the right to make his or her own choices in this life. However, human beings are full of errors and not so many of us know how to make right choices in this life. That is why there are rules and regulations to guide people in making choices. That is another reason why there are laws, courts, prison facilities, etc. so as to help check the choices people make.

Nature is full of life and life is good. Anything that goes against nature goes against life. Anything that goes against life is evil and must be stopped. Homosexuality goes against nature but nature as we all know it, is not for a selected few. Because nature is for us all, we have the right to stop anything that harms nature. Homosexuality goes against nature so it makes much sense to refer to homosexuality as an evil act. There is nothing right in evil yet we have gay rights.

I may be sounding ignorant in this post maybe because of my background but I strongly believe homosexuality goes against nature and it doesn't make much sense writing laws and modifying constitutions just to promote homosexuality as an act all in the name of "rights" knowing very well there is no "right" in "wrong".

I strongly believe nobody was born gay. Homosexuality is a choice people make but homosexuality is a bad choice which deserves no right. We must help homosexuals to reverse their bad choices instead of giving them the rights to continue being homosexuals. I don't think we are helping them in any good way by giving them the rights to continue following their bad choices. I strongly believe nobody was born gay. Homosexuality is just a bad choice people make.

Nature is such that a male and a female shall come together and produce offspring. If evolution is true as scientists say then we should know that homosexuality is a very bad behavior because it doesn't support our survival and continuity. A population full of homosexuals has no future at all because there would be no procreation which means the entire population would wipe out just like that. Homosexuality isn't a behavior we must support by giving rights to. Once again, pardon my ignorance but that is what I think.

What do you think?

[Doug]

O Kofi what do I think? I think I think like you think.

Sometimes I like to think beyond what I first think because I think that thinking beyond thinking what is apparent is very rewarding to the thinking process. As a side, there is a lot of thinking in the above sentence.

And so Kofi you wrote: "Homosexuality isn't a behavior we must support by giving rights to". I think I shall agree with that statement except for the word support after thinking about it. After further thought I believe I will cross out the word 'isn't'. And so this is what I get. Homosexuality is a behavior we must tolerate by giving rights to. Now Kofi why do I say this? I say this because I look at NATURE. Looking at man and the nature of man I see man in NATURE has free will. Free will means, as you say, man can make choices in what he does. If this is so then their must be a reason for this ability. If going against nature has bad results then we might call that evil. So it follows living with nature is good. So we have good and evil. And so man can choose good or evil and the only reason for choice or free will is for judgement. Judgement can only be made of there is free choice.

The LAW OF NATURE says that what one sows one reaps. Their is a reaction for every action. There is two sides to everything. Up has down. East has West. A cup has an inside and the other side is outside etc.

And so if we take away the right of a man to choose straight or homo we are going against the nature of free will and eventual judgement of man's choice. Then again if a man fears God their is the matter of the judgement of a persons life whether it be good or evil. If one believes in God then if we do not give rights to homosexuals we are going against something God did. He gave the right for man to choose what he will be. If you do not believe in God then it does not change a thing for NATURE it's self has deemed the same thing.

So however you cut the pie evil is still evil and good is still good. Free will is still free will and the purpose is for judgement. The only remaining thing of importance is our choice of choosing what is good or evil. Let us not try to be the judge but give deeper thought into the ways of nature or if you prefer the nature of God.

And so Kofi ponder my thoughts and add your wisdom so all reading this may do the same for the benefit of all.

[Kofi]

"Sometimes I like to think beyond what I first think because I think that thinking beyond thinking what is apparent is very rewarding to the thinking process"
That is very true. "The LAW OF NATURE says that what one sows one reaps" and also, "He gave the right for man to choose what he will be" which is also very true.

Sometimes however, I think we humans pay too much attention to free will knowing very well that not all of us know how to use free will to benefit us rather than harming us. We have free will but most of us are not wise enough to know how to use free will to our advantage.

Nothing good comes out of evil so if homosexuality is evil then nothing good can come out of homosexuality. Now let me use this as an example. Lets say a neighbor came to my house this morning and asked me for a rope which I gave to him freely without asking for anything in return. I gave the rope to him not knowing that the man was going to use the rope to hang himself.

I gave the rope to my brother without asking for anything in return exactly as the Bible instructs us to do so in this case I don't think God would punish me for giving the man the rope. In fact God is going to reward me for giving to my brother freely without asking for anything in return.

Now Lets say I knew earlier on that the man was going to use the rope to commit suicide but still went ahead and gave the rope to him. There is no doubt God would surely punish me for that.

Now imagine I later on realized that the man was going to use the rope I gave him to commit suicide and quickly rushed to his house and collected the rope I gave him. I think God would surely reward me for caring about my brother. I collected the rope but the man may still go ahead and jump the bridge and die.

I collected the rope so he couldn't hang himself but he still went ahead and jumped the bridge and died just like that. He thought he had the right to die so he went ahead and killed himself but that is between him and his god. It is very sad but the good part is that, I did not allow him to hang himself with my rope and I don't think God would punish for that.

Now back to homosexuality. Whether we give them the right or not, there will still be homosexuals in our communities. Whether we give them the right to marry or not, there will still be homosexuals living together as husbands and wives. They think they have the free will to decide for themselves and they think they have the rights to be homosexuals the same way the man in my example thought he had the right to die. Giving them the rights to be homosexuals is just like giving my rope to the man in my example and I think God may punish us for that.

Wherever there is good, there is also evil. However, God is older than the devil because there was a time God existed without the devil. If God is Light then Light is older than darkness. The same thing applies to truth. if God is Truth then I think truth is older than evil/lies. I strongly believe nature is life and that true nature is free from all evil. The nature we see today is a 'corrupted nature' that is why good and bad appear almost inseparable. What I am trying to say is that, if Nature is Life and God is Life then Nature can exist without all the corruptions (such as homosexuality).

Although it appears impossible, we can still help remove some of these corruptions such as homosexuality to help return nature a little bit closer to its pure form. What do you think?

[Doug]

WOW! Thats a brainfull to think about. Don't know really where to start. But I'll give it a shot. So how about "Nothing good comes out of evil".

Nothing good comes out of evil? Remember Kofi I said everything as two sides. Lets look at evil. Has evil got two sides? If I say no most everyone will agree with me. If I say evil has two sides I better be ready to prove what I say. So here goes.

Evil has two sides. One side is negative; damnation by God The other side is positive; acceptance by God, in other words salvation. Case in point, Cain and Able. Able was righteous and Cain was evil. God accepted Able but rejected Cain. God told Cain if he overcame his evil God would accept him just as He accepted his brother Able. Every human is born with a conscience, an inborn ability to know what is good or evil. After Adam and Eve ate of the tree of good and evil God said "now they are like us knowing good and evil". So every man knows the difference but has free will to sear his conscience. "Nothing good can come out of homosexuality", you say? Repentance leading to life can come out of homosexuality and that is the positive side of it. The person can find the everlasting mercy and forgiveness of God after experiencing the evil of the act and that is the positive side of evil. Why do you think God created evil in the first place if God is love? How can you know love and mercy (God) if you have nothing to judge it by. How can one know what the term good means unless you have an opposite to set a standard by?

"Giving them the rights to be homosexuals". Rights? Rights to what? Rights to live? Rights to die? Rights to do good? Rights to do evil? Rights to do VooDoo? Rights to kill in the name of religion? Man can pass laws, give rights, to anything man wishes to do. That is called free will which is God given or some would prefer 'Nature'. Man did not make 'Nature', God, and man cannot change the laws of God or as some prefer 'Nature'.

Giving rope to a man to hang himself? God gave this rope to man before man ever thought about it. It is called free will to do what you want. Man does not have the wisdom to use free will? That wisdom is called conscience which was also give by God to man to control his free will.

The part of me that thinks is starting to hurt with all this thinking so I think I will let you think for awhile and let me know what your thinker thinks about what I think.

[Kofi]

"Every human is born with a conscience, an inborn ability to know what is good or evil." This is very true. "The person can find the everlasting mercy and forgiveness of God after experiencing the evil of the act" This is also very true.

Nothing good can come out of lucifer/satan as a person or a being. However, the presence of satan in this world enables God to know how much we love Him(God). If something good comes out of lucifer (as a person or a being) then lucifer is not a devil. But nothing good can come out of lucifer that is why he is a devil. All of us have some goodness and some evil in us and there is no doubt we are sinners. Yes we are sinners but I don't think we are all evil why because there is some goodness in us although we are sinners. We become evil only when we allow the evil in us to overcome all the goodness in us to the point where nothing good can come out of us.

If something good can come out of evil then why do we call it evil?. If there is some goodness in evil then why do we call it evil? Also, we all came out of our mothers' wombs and we have some of our mothers' blood and DNA in us. If some goodness comes out of evil then can that goodness exist without some traces of evil in it? and if it has some traces of evil in it then can we still call it goodness?

After the Haiti earthquake I asked why God allows such terrible things to happen to His children and someone replied that, it has been reported that one voodoo priestess converted to Christianity after the earthquake and according to the voodoo priestess, the earthquake showed her that there is a powerful force somewhere that is above all the voodoo forces she had known all her life. Despite the loss of over 250,000 lives, something good came out of it although very little compared to the loss. But the question is, was the Haiti earthquake an Evil or just a Disaster?

Now back to homosexuality. Nothing good can come out of homosexuality as an act but something good can come out of homosexuals because they are not evil. Homosexuals are sinners just like me but they are not evil because there is some goodness in them and they can repent. The 'repent' here is for good but this goodness comes out of homosexuals as people not from homosexuality because homosexuality as an act is evil and nothing good can come out it. In other words, something good can come out of sinners such as homosexuals but nothing good can come out of evil such as homosexuality.

Back to our rope. Free will can bring us goodness if we apply it well but it can also bring us doom if we misuse it. I don't think the free will God gave us is a bad thing if applied with good conscience. However, the rope in my example can only help the man hang himself. The rope can only bring doom.

what do you think?

[Doug]

Free will is inanimate in itself. A rope is also inanimate in itself. The rope can only bring doom. But, the rope could also bring second thoughts. Or, as you say it could be the means of his death. So could a gun be. So could poison be. The real cause of his death however, is his free will to do so by whatever means.

However, until the man has the means to kill himself it is only a thought in his mind and an impossibility for he has no means to do so. It is no more than a threat at that time. So you judge one way and I judge another. When the threat becomes reality you judge the worse - death. For me I judge on the side of positivity and say - change of mind in face of reality. Free will has to be enacted by everyone. If the man wants to kill himself wether or not you give him the rope he will kill himself. He is dead and thats the end for him. However, if I shock him into reality he has a chance to repent of his actions and a chance for life. As I said, there are two side to everything. So you look at one side of the cup and I the other. In any case we both make a decision, and that Kof,i is exercising our free will. Is either decision good or evil? Why?

If there is some goodness in evil then why do we call it evil? Because good is good and evil is evil. Yes, evil is evil. If chicken soup is 95% water why do we call it chicken soup? Why not water soup? Chicken brings out the savor of water. Chicken makes the goodness of water very very good. And so if there is some evil mixed in good it will bring out the savor of good. Once we get the taste of real chicken we will prefer the chicken instead of the soup, a mixture. So it is with a mixture of good and evil. Once we taste the benefits of good we will go for the good. Once we taste the bitterness of evil we will stop eating it.

So the bitterness of evil is good, for now we know what looks good to our eyes is not good for our body. NO! Evil is not good and good is not evil. Without evil God could not judge anyone. Without good God could not condemn evil. Without evil there would be no repentance. Without evil God could not be merciful for there would be nothing to be merciful for. Without evil forgiveness would not exist. Without evil all things would be robots. There would be no such thing as free-will for all things would be perfect. Lets stop there for if everything was perfect all things would be God.

So now what do you think?

[Kofi]

"If chicken soup is 95% water why do we call it chicken soup? Why not water soup?" That is a very big question. Now it is getting harder. You have made some very convincing points but as you said there are two sides to this so it is making it even harder. "Without evil God could not be merciful for there would be nothing to be merciful for" which is very true but on the other hand, nothing good can come out of satan because there is no goodness in him and that is what makes him a devil/evil.

Also I believe that truth is whole. God is Truth and God is whole (not parts) so truth is whole. Either true or false. Either good or evil. Evil is the opposite of God/Truth and truth is whole and so is evil. There are no parts to truth and there are no good parts in evil.

Now back to our rope. "The real cause of his death however, is his free will to do so by whatever means" which is very true. As you said "a change of mind in the face of reality" and that is possible. Although very little possibility, it is not impossible. A change of mind in the face of reality is possible but I think that even if the change comes, it may come from the man holding the rope because the man is not evil (just a sinner with good parts in him) but the change can never come from the rope because the rope signifies evil and it can only help him hang himself.

what do you think?

[Doug]

Quote: A change of mind in the face of reality is possible but I think that even if the change comes, it may come from the man holding the rope because the man is not evil (just a sinner with good parts in him) but the change can never come from the rope because the rope signifies evil and it can only help him hang himself.

"the rope signifies evil and it can only help him hang himself".
The rope is an inanimate object and can do nothing of itself. A rope can be used for good as well as evil. Also a rope can be used for nothing also, just lay their. If a rope is used it must be used by someone. The intention of the user of the rope is what makes the rope used for evil or good. It is the mind of the one who uses the rope who decides what the rope is going to be used for therefore the rope cannot signify evil it must be the mind of the user. The mind of the user has free will to decide what he will do with the rope. The rope does not signify evil any more than a gun, bow and arrow, a rock or a hammer signify evil. What is evil or good is the choice this man makes. Good or evil is no more than a choice man makes to do something whether it be to use an object or even his tongue to spew evil words or intent.

So Kofi you say: "on the other hand, nothing good can come out of satan because there is no goodness in him and that is what makes him a devil/evil.
Also I believe that truth is whole. God is Truth and God is whole (not parts) so truth is whole. Either true or false. Either good or evil. Evil is the opposite of God/Truth and truth is whole and so is evil. There are no parts to truth and there are no good parts in evil".

On the other hand God created all things and said they are good. God created the devil for a purpose. God cannot create evil so therefore the devil was created for good. In the beginning God separated light (good) from darkness (evil) and He said the light was GOOD. That leaves the darkness EVIL. Now the final judgement is this says Jesus. All will come out of their graves and those who have done good will come to a resurrection of life and those who have done evil to a resurrection of damnation. So evil is evil and good is good. However the good in evil is that without it God could not judge who is good. Therefore none would rise to eternal life and none could be dammed.

On the other hand when we look at good or evil they are no more than an inanimate quality. They are a value determined by God. When man ate of the tree of good and evil God said they were now like Him knowing good and evil. That is what satin said would happen. God used satin to teach man what good and evil was. God used satin to show man what evil was for God is good and cannot teach evil. Now man must know what good and evil is. Man was given free will to choose by God. Free will would be useless if their was nothing that could be chosen. In light of this satin filled the will of God so man could be like God knowing good and evil and make a choice for good or evil or in other words life or damnation.

And so as we look at good and evil they are just a quality that must be acted on before they become a reality. They are only an inanimate quality to be chosen by man according to his desires. When a good or evil quality becomes an action preformed to it's conclusion only then does it become a reality and can be judged by God.

In conclusion God created everything and said it was good including satin. Light and darkness or good and evil were mixed together and God separated them. Satin was created to do something God could not do: show man the difference between good and evil for God can only teach man good.

So Kofi what do you think? If God created all things and said they were good there must be some good in satin. Evil is a quality and satin is a tool of God. Satin is only evil when he chooses or is used of God to use evil so God can judge man or lead man to repentance and life. Good or evil is like your rope, an inanimate thing to be used by man to show the intent and heart of the man. Like the bible says, man is tempted by his own lusts or desires. It is satins job to tempt man for it says God does not temp man. It is mans evil desires that satin temps. Man is evil when of his own free will he chooses evil instead of good. So is satin evil or is he created by God to test man by deception or tempting mans own lusts or desires? As you know satin can do nothing without Gods permission as illustrated in the story of Job.

So is satin good, evil or just a tool of God? OR. Is evil evil and satin is only a creation of God to use evil for His purposes?

[Kofi]

You are right the rope has no life. The rope is just an inanimate object and depends on the user. The rope can be used for good as well as for bad but not both at the same time. It depends on the situation. I was thinking far too extreme or maybe one-sided but I see your point. In some societies a 'sack' often signifies death. Even in some American literature books, a "sack" often signifies death. Also, 'light' often signifies life and 'darkness', death or evil. Sack, light, darkness, etc. are all inanimate objects but they often signify something deep. I was thinking that extreme but I see it doesn't make much sense in this our example.

Back to our discussion. Imagine you live in a countryside or a village where there are wolves, bears, and other wild animals and because of the danger around, people have guns to protect themselves. Imagine you see your neighbor behaving strangely or imagine you know for sure that your neighbor wants to commit suicide. Imagine this your neighbor comes to your house and asks for your gun, are you going to give to him freely just because you are neighbors without asking him anything? Imagine you asks your neighbor what he is going to use the gun for but your neighbor decides to tell you a lie which you know is a lie. would you still give your gun to this your neighbor knowing very well that he was going to use it to commit suicide?

If we know what homosexuals are doing is wrong then does it make much sense to give them the right to be homosexuals just because they are human beings? I know they have free will but we have free will too. If you know what you are doing is wrong then does it make much sense to continue doing it? Homosexuals are homosexuals because most of them don't know what they are doing is wrong but you and I know what they are doing is wrong and if so then does it make much sense for you and I to modify constitutions and laws just to enable them 'enjoy' being homosexuals just because they are human beings?

"If God created all things and said they were good there must be some good in satin". That makes sense but that makes it even more complicated. Imagine you are in an empty room all by yourself making sketches on plain drawing sheets. Imagine all you have in the room with you is a pencil, a drawing board, drawing sheets, and some white color/paint. Imagine after sketching you see red paint scattered all over the sketch. What would you say/ask yourself?. If God is perfect with no evil in Him then where from the evil in satan that affected all of us?. It is very complicated if we take it to that extreme. These are some of the things we can never understand no matter how hard we try.

Just believing sometimes makes us look foolish but in some cases it helps a lot. It prevents us from going mad due to 'over-thinking'. I believe we are sinners but there is some goodness in us and that is why there is hope for us. Satan is evil with no goodness in him and that is why there is no hope for satan. Satan can never change because he is evil.

[Doug]

You say quote "Satan is evil with no goodness in him".

I say God created everything and said it is good. Write a letter to God about that if you don't like what He said.

You say quote: "If we know what homosexuals are doing is wrong then does it make much sense to give them the right to be homosexuals just because they are human beings?

I say God created everything and gave man the right to do anything man can dream up to do. With God given free-will man can do what is right or what is evil. God also gave man the right to make laws to govern the society he lives in. However the God given rights take precedent over man made rights. Again, unless man has the right to do good or evil at his choosing, God has no standard to judge the heart of that man. If you refuse to give him the right to be a pervert you are usurping the will of God when God willed to give man free-will to choose. When you take away a right that God gave, you have become a god sitting in the throne of God. God is the lawmaker of good and evil and that we must obey. God also is the giver of rights and that we must not take away.

I don't care for the filthy practices of the perverts any more than you do. I don't care for a lot of other things people do from VooDoo to killing by prolonged hours of torture of an innocent man to pay their blood thirsty god. I do not care for a person to lie to me, to cheat me, to screw my wife or steal from me. God gave me the right to choose good or choose evil. I never read where God gave me the right to take the right of another to choose good or evil. Sometimes I would like that right but know it has not been given to me.

So Kofi I know you do not care for the way I see things sometimes. Sometimes I myself do not like the things God shows me. But God is God and me is me. He made the rules and gave the rights.

If Homosexuality is morally wrong then why Gay rights?
Because as it says: 2Th. 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th. 2:4
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD.

So what do you think after you know what I think?

By the way, are we the only ones that are willing to think on this forum?

[Kofi]

"So Kofi I know you do not care for the way I see things sometimes." I do care and to be honest, I enjoy reading your posts because your posts are deep in thought. I may not agree with you on certain issues but that does not mean what you are saying is wrong. It may imply my mind is not deep enough to understand what you are saying at this point but maybe tomorrow when my eyes clear, I may come back to your post and may understand what you were saying. For example, initially I thought the rope was evil and nothing else forgetting that the rope has no legs to walk. I read this thread the second time and realize my point doesn't make much sense in this example.

Back to our discussion. "If you refuse to give him the right to be a pervert you are usurping the will of God when God willed to give man free-will to choose." This makes sense but my question is, if so then why do police arrest people for suicide attempts? Why is it a crime to kill yourself? Should we allow people the right to kill themselves? should we allow people the right to commit suicide because of free will?

"By the way, are we the only ones that are willing to think on this forum?". That is a very big question. Facebook has killed so many discussion forums. Most discussion forums I used to visit have collapsed because of facebook and twitter. Facebook has all the features that discussion forums have and even better. Facebook is also very addictive and it is much fun discussion topics on facebook with friends especially if you have more friends. So these days what people do is that, if they find an interesting article online, they copy and paste the article on facebook and discuss it with friends over there. I have seen some "how to fix this" forums doing great but for general issues forums like this one, people prefer discussing the topics on facebook. I'm not used to facebook that is why I still enjoy posting in traditional discussion forums like this one. Also sometimes facebook permanently deletes your older posts/articles to make room for new posts but in traditional forums like this, even if the forum collapses the forum database remains and someone can use it in the near future. Myspace used to be very popular in those days but it is down now and I don't think facebook will remain up there forever.

[Doug]

Why is it a crime to kill yourself? Because killing any innocent person is a crime. A crime against the laws of man and a crime against the commandments of God. However no one who has ever committed this crime has been punished.

"Should we allow people the right to kill themselves? should we allow people the right to commit suicide because of free will"?

Allow people to kill themselves and allow them the RIGHT to kill themselves are two different things. If you give a person the right to do anything then it is not a crime to do so. People are allowed to do anything if they are not physically restrained. A person in a jail cell would be physically restrained so he could not kill another person or himself. If he is let out on bond you are allowing him to kill another person or himself for he is no longer restrained.

Allowing a person to do anything is not restraining him but letting him exercise free-will. Passing a law limits the unrestrained person to what is evil in the sight of God or man and restrains the person by threat of punishment. This is true in the social order of both God and man.

Now if you give the person the right to do something you give him permission to do it with no restraints and there is no punishment.

Now we come to the question of a pervert. Sodomy is against the law in some countries. In some it is allowed. In others the law of sodomy has been reversed. Man has free will and can have no law of sodomy, pass a law of sodomy or man can reverse the law of sodomy. When God makes a law it remains forever. When man in his free-will goes contrary to God's law it is now called a sin. Man does not get punished by man but is in trouble with God. When this situation occurs it now is in the hands of God and we, as humans, must accept that. If we do not accept what God determines as His prerogative we are not with God but against Him. The way I see it is, God is number one. We have become like God knowing good and evil. However we are not God but like Him. He has set parameters for man and as long as man honors the law and precepts set by God man has the RIGHT to use his free-will. Working outside the parameters set by God is sin and now becomes subject to judgement.

There is however one great problem with all of this. This problem messes up the minds of people so that they no longer can determine the difference between the will of God and the will of man. Religion has stepped in, made billions of dollars, constructed beautiful buildings for their enjoyment, provided a luxurious living for the lazy and on and on all in the name of God.
Religion has enslaved untold people in their many doctrines and laws in the name of God.

I think I shall stop at this point before I say what I really think about religion.

How can one tell what is morally wrong about perverts, homosexuals, gays and such scum when religion has some of their gods that say it is OK an some of their other gods say no. Some of religions' gods require payment and others will have mercy for your sins. On and on and on.

I hope I gave you enough to comment on Kofi. Lets hear how your brain digests my brain.

[Kofi]

"When God makes a law it remains forever. When man in his free-will goes contrary to God's law it is now called a sin."
That is very true. God's laws are the laws of nature. God's laws are the laws humans came to meet on this planet we call earth. God is perfect and His laws are perfect. Man is not perfect and we can never make perfect laws. If man cannot make perfect laws then it implies that every law man makes in some way goes against the laws of God which are the laws of nature. If so then is it a sin for man to make laws at all? In other words, are all man-made laws sinful before God?

"If you give a person the right to do anything then it is not a crime to do so."
God has given us the right to decide for ourselves. He has given us the right to choose to do whatever we want to do but it is a crime to kill your brother. God has given us free-will to choose to do whatever pleases us but in some way the free-will is not "free" because He(God) is going to judge at the end of the day. He is going to put the wicked in hell although He has given us the right to decide for ourselves. what do you think?

"Religion has stepped in, made billions of dollars, constructed beautiful buildings for their enjoyment, provided a luxurious living for the lazy and on and on all in the name of God."
That is very true. These days the true religions are almost no more. Almost all religions today are corrupt and the sad thing is that most of us have been fed with some of these 'corrupted truths' since infancy so it is very difficult getting rid of some of them. I used to pay much attention to religion but these days I think twice about religion.

[Doug]

[QUOTE=Kofi;10484]. Man is not perfect and we can never make perfect laws. If man cannot make perfect laws then it implies that every law man makes in some way goes against the laws of God which are the laws of nature.

I'll have to think about that. Thou shall not kill says God. Man has same law. Now what do we have? Are all man-made laws sinful before God? Think!

"He is going to put the wicked in hell although He has given us the right to decide for ourselves. what do you think"? I agree altho I don't know about hell but I do know damnation is what Jesus said. Where or what that is I do not know and I really have no desire to know.


"These days the true religions are almost no more". Looking at this statement of yours you are telling me at one time there were true religions. RELIGIONS! More than one religion that is true. The words, 'almost no more,' are telling me there are still true religions but fewer of them. This statement also tells me you must know what the true religions are for you are making a judgement that they are getting fewer and to do this you must be able to identify them. If there is one God, one creator, one set of laws to live by how can there be many true religions defining their many gods. Would you mind very much to tell me what the true religions are or were and why? This statement also tells me you think there are true religions. God never made a religion. He gave us commandments to live by. Laws whereby we may live. All religion is man made therefore, as you say, cannot be perfect. God is perfect and God is true. Therefore what man has made to instruct us about God and what is His will cannot be true because man is not perfect and true. Because of the flaws of man made religion, there cannot be a true religion. So Kofi because you believe there is many true religions you become confused in your thinking. When you listen to a preacher of any religion you are getting a mixture of true and false. God's thoughts and mans thoughts. If Jesus said you need no man to teach you but the Holy Spirit will teach you that is exactly what he means. When you listen to the preacher instead of the Holy Spirit you do not believe Jesus. When you listen to the preacher and the Holy Spirit you do not believe Jesus. When you listen to the Holy Spirit only you believe Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh so you are listing to the Word of God. Jesus said his words are Spirit and truth. Therefore if you listen to the words of Jesus that is the Spirit teaching you. If you listen to a preacher or man that is man teaching you. You are listing to imperfection, (a man), and you will never come to the real truth. If you never make a choice between religion and the word of God you will never find the true God.

[Kofi]

"If there is one God, one creator, one set of laws to live by how can there be many true religions defining their many gods?"
That is a very big question. After thinking about it for sometime now, I'm beginning to see the light. If there is just one God and His laws are perfect then the laws must be the same for all because a perfect law needs no change. Which implies there must be just one set of perfect laws for all religions and if the laws, rules, regulations are the same in all religions then there can be just one big true religion with the perfect laws of God. The differences in laws, rules, and regulations from one religion to another implies there is something wrong somewhere. As we can see today, the laws, rules, and regulations change as you move from one religion to the other and also some of the laws keep changing even in Christianity which means the laws in Christianity are not perfect and hence Christianity cannot be a true religion of God. The same applies to all other religions. I agree with you on the religion side. Now I see it makes perfect sense to ignore all religions because none of them is true.

"When you listen to the preacher instead of the Holy Spirit you do not believe Jesus" This point also makes perfect sense especially if the preacher man is just an 'ordinary' man. The only question I have here is, what if the Holy Spirit is using the preacher man as a vessel to teach people? Although the man is not perfect, he is just a vessel but what comes out of him(the man) is perfect because it comes from the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit does not use people as vessels then the Bible cannot be right all the time because humans wrote the Bible and humans are not perfect. What do you think?

Back to the laws of man. Thou shalt not kill is very similar to our law but I don't think they are the same because if they are the same then it implies something perfect can come out of man but as we all know, man is imperfect and nothing perfect can come out of man. If something perfect can come out of man then it is possible there were some true religion in this world. What do you think?

[Doug]

Yes, something perfect can come out of man. Also something imperfect can also come out of man. Homosexuality can come out of a man which is a perversion of sex or man can produce another life by the proper use of sex. A perversion or corruption of nature in any way is evil.

As we see both good and evil can come out of a man. A homosexual can do what is right also. A killer can also do something good if he takes a notion to do so.

"If something is perfect can come out of man then it is possible there were some true religion in this world. What do you think"?
Do you know what deception is? Satin's job is to deceive. Deception is 90% truth and 10% untruth. Ninety percent the word of God and ten percent the thoughts of man. With that combination I don't think I have to say any more. Is it possible there is some true religion in this word? You will have to judge that for yourself for whatever I say means nothing unless you yourself understand the facts.

90% true + 10% true = 100% true Pure
90% true + 10% false= 90% true Polluted

You do the math!

Quote: The only question I have here is, what if the Holy Spirit is using the preacher man as a vessel to teach people? Although the man is not perfect, he is just a vessel but what comes out of him(the man) is perfect because it comes from the Holy Spirit.

I shall answer this with the words of Jesus quote: You need no man to teach you for the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. My words are spirit and they are truth.

So Kofi if the Holy Spirit is using the preacher man to teach people then the Spirit is not doing what he is supposed to do for HE is supposed to teach you. On the other hand maybe Jesus did not know what he was talking about when he gave the job of teaching you all things by the Spirit but the Spirit is supposed to pass the knowledge on to the preacher man to give it to you second hand. I see you are still trying to perceive things through the eyes of religion rather than the eyes of the Spirit.

What do you think?

[Kofi]

"A homosexual can do what is right also. A killer can also do something good if he takes a notion to do so." Something good can come out of a sinner but even what we consider good before God is just like a filthy rag. Something good can come out of us but I still believe nothing perfect can come out of something imperfect. Something good can come out of us but nothing perfect can come out of us because we are imperfect.

90% true + 10% true = 100% true Pure. This is very true.

90% true + 10% false= 90% true Polluted. This also means that every truth that comes out of man is in someway polluted because man is not perfect.

Imagine we can reduce all human actions, all human deeds, all the bad thoughts in us, all the good thoughts in us, all the fears and anger in us, all the confusion in us, all the love and hatred in us, our bad sexual desires like homosexuality, etc. into just a figure, I think that figure would be very huge. Lets say we can reduce all these to just a small figure like say 100000. We are imperfect but lets say something perfect can come out of us. In order not to cause much confusion, lets say 80% of the things that come out of us are perfect and the remaining 20% for the imperfect things that come out of us. We all know that even if something perfect comes out of us that may represent just a very very small percentage but I've made the perfect things 80% to make things easier. 80% of 100000 is 80000(perfect things). 20% of 100000 is 20000(imperfect) things. 20000 is very small compared to 80000 but 20000 is not an insignificant figure we can just ignore.

There are so many prophets in the Bible. A prophet(like Isaiah) is a spokesperson for God. God speaks to His people through the prophets. The prophet speaks the words of God to the people but the prophet acts as an empty vessel. If the prophet is not an empty vessel, then what comes out of the prophet cannot be pure truth because the prophet is just a human being.

From your quote, Jesus said "You need no man to teach you for the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. My words are spirit and they are truth."
The only way we can believe this without any problem is if Jesus is God or If Jesus is just an empty vessel(prophet). But if Jesus was a prophet then it means that God was just using Jesus to speak to His(God's) people. If God used Jesus as a prophet to teach His people then there is no doubt God uses people (such as Pastors) to teach people. If God uses the Pastor to teach people then I don't think going to church on Sunday to listen to the Pastor speak is a bad idea at all.

"my words are spirit and they are TRUTH" not "corrupted truth" which implies what is coming out of Jesus is perfect. But as we all know, there is no way something '100%' perfect can come out of an imperfect man. Even if something good comes out of an ordinary man, it can never be perfect because we are not perfect. If Jesus was just an ordinary man as some people say then why must we believe all the things He says? If Jesus was just a Prophet then it implies God uses people as empty vessels to teach other people which means listening to a good Pastor on Sunday may not be a bad idea at all.

If Jesus is God then it makes perfect sense to believe all that He says but if Jesus is not God but just an ordinary man then we may be mistaking greatly. Also, Jesus did not write the Bible not even His immediate disciples wrote the Bible. I like the fact that you always quote the Bible to support your point of view because it shows you know what you are talking about. But the problem here is that, the Bible was written by ordinary men several centuries ago. We can believe the Bible if and only if God used those men as empty vessels to write the Bible. If God/Holy Spirit used those men to write the Bible to teach us the truth then I don't think it is impossible for God to use some pastors to explain the Bible to us. What do you think?

[Doug]

What do you think?[/QUOTE]

I think you will think what you want to think.

You
"Nature is full of life and life is good. Anything that goes against nature goes against life. Anything that goes against life is evil and must be stopped. Homosexuality goes against nature but nature is not for one person. Because nature is for us all, we have the right to stop anything that harms nature. Homosexuality goes against nature and homosexuality is evil and there is no right in evil yet we have gay rights."

God
"Ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:7-10)


Look to CREATION and it speaks of their Creator, God.

If God tells us to look to nature for proof of him, why are there over 1500 documented species, 500 of them very well documented, participating in homosexuality?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

What is my theory? Homosexuality was made to be a sin by a man who didn't like what he saw happening around him. What is true? Homosexuality IS natural. It's not a conscientious thing, it's a natural thing that occurs in animals and humans a like. God tells us the truth of Him is in nature, which has no language barrier...So why does the bible continue to reference it as sin? because one man, made it God's law. and it continues to this day. AID's wasn't supposedly present at ALL until the 1930's, so you can't use that as a method for proving it's wrong. it's been around since Deuteronomy.

[Doug]

If Homosexuality is morally wrong then why Gay rights?

Answer - To give Gays the right to be morally wrong, of course.

[riddhisai]

gay rights are to be given because even the human beings who turn homosexual can't help themselves to be like that so its better they also live happily in this democratic world

great discussion you all have made interesting points but what we must know is that, gay people have no choice. they were born that way so homosexuality is natural and so we must accept it as part of how nature works. Also gay people are human beings just like you and I so why shouldn't we allow gay people into the military?

very interesting discussion. however kofi i think you are taking it to the extreme. you consider homosexuality evil because of what you belief as a religious person but it also morally wrong to force your religious views on others. what is the point in what i'm saying? let gay people decide for themselves.

marriage is a civil right. equality for all. i say yes to gay rights. it is about time

homosexuality is not a choice. they were born that way. sexy boys attract them just like sexy girls attract you.

[Doug]

Is Homosexuality morally wrong? Depends on what your morals are.

For me it is disgusting beyond words. If you like to stir crap with your Dickie weenie then by all means stick it in and plunge away in the brown stuff. How repulsive! And now if you are a girl let me think. These type of females are neither girls nor women. They are no use to a man or are they capable of what they are made for in their condition. Yes who would want something that looks like it could function like a human but has worse habits than a dog or pig.

Yes homo's should have rights to slop around in the filth of mankind. They should have the rights to enjoy the fruits of filth and have the pleasure of aids and all the other wonderful things associated with that life style.

The nice thing about being a real man or a real woman is we do not need laws to make us what we are like the gays do. Pardon me while I go puke.

you hate homosexuals because of a 2000 plus year old book? lol

all homosexuals are going to hell. if you are a homosexual and you don't stop it now that you are alive, when you die you are going to burn in eternal fire.

God hates fags!! repent or forever burn in hell!!